Panzer IV

Robert1968 · Dec 6, 2015

\ said:
Looking good Robert ............ I'm not sure how (and if you want to) you can get a dull red glow to the turret? Someone far cleverer than me might know ....... But if the ammo "cooked off" it would get damn hot .......... or is this going to be the aftermath?

Yes it's going to be an aftermath ( few surprises in stall ) still got to get a few figs ( I don't want to go too dramatic out of my comfort zone or I may #### it up

dubster72 · Dec 6, 2015

From the slight sheen to the paintwork,I'm guessing you've used Vallejo Robert? If so, I would definitely add a protective coat of Clear/Klear.

That's to avoid exposing bare plastic when you rub off the upper coat.

So, once the protective coat is cured, spray a coating of hairspray over the entire model. Allow to dry & then add the top coat. Apply the paint more thinly along the edges of panels which is where you'll want the top coat to rub off. Once that's touch dry, begin rubbing with an old toothbrush & plenty of water. Concentrate on the edges & raised parts to get the worn effect.

I have to add a note of caution ~ Vallejo paints are not known for behaving well when using the hairspray technique. Because of the plastisizer that's in them, the paint doesn't come off in tiny tiny bits. You're more likely to see it coming off in larger bits. Just something to watch out for.

If it was me... I'd spray the model with the top coat & then chip it with German Grey to show the worn areas. It's a more controllable method than using hairspray because you can add more if desired. With the hairspray method, once the paint has been removed there's no way to undo it.

Robert1968 · Dec 6, 2015

\ said:
From the slight sheen to the paintwork,I'm guessing you've used Vallejo Robert? If so, I would definitely add a protective coat of Clear/Klear.
That's to avoid exposing bare plastic when you rub off the upper coat.

So, once the protective coat is cured, spray a coating of hairspray over the entire model. Allow to dry & then add the top coat. Apply the paint more thinly along the edges of panels which is where you'll want the top coat to rub off. Once that's touch dry, begin rubbing with an old toothbrush & plenty of water. Concentrate on the edges & raised parts to get the worn effect.

I have to add a note of caution ~ Vallejo paints are not known for behaving well when using the hairspray technique. Because of the plastisizer that's in them, the paint doesn't come off in tiny tiny bits. You're more likely to see it coming off in larger bits. Just something to watch out for.

If it was me... I'd spray the model with the top coat & then chip it with German Grey to show the worn areas. It's a more controllable method than using hairspray because you can add more if desired. With the hairspraymethod, once the paint has been removed there's no way to undo it.

That seems to be the best way for me.... I am a bit dubious of the hairspray tech. The reason I'm asking is when I did the 1/72 figures I primed with Vallejo then painted with Vallejo/ Revell acrylics and I noted that the Vallejo came off in chunks over the wee guys so I used IPA and then started again with Revell 43 as a primer and top coated with Revell and Vallejo paints and it worked a treat.

That plastisizer.

I went and got two cheap primers from pound land yesterday and think I'm going to find these rattle cans helpful

Cheers

Robert

dubster72 · Dec 6, 2015

\ said:
That seems to be the best way for me.... I am a bit dubious of the hairspray tech. The reason I'm asking is when I did the 1/72 figures I primed with Vallejo then painted with Vallejo/ Revell acrylics and I noted that the Vallejo came off in chunks over the wee guys so I used IPA and then started again with Revell 43 as a primer and top coated with Revell and Vallejo paints and it worked a treat.
That plastisizer.

I went and got two cheap primers from pound land yesterday and think I'm going to find these rattle cans helpful

Cheers

Robert

The hairspray technique is good for worn away winter whitewashes, coz it's better at removing larger areas of paint.

The added plastisizer was the USP when Vallejo first started out.I suspect someone in the company had a background in automobile spraying

The best paint for the hairspray technique are Tamiya acrylics.

Robert1968 · Dec 6, 2015

\ said:
The hairspray technique is good for worn away winter whitewashes, coz it's better at removing larger areas of paint.
The added plastisizer was the USP when Vallejo first started out.I suspect someone in the company had a background in automobile spraying

The best paint for the hairspray technique are Tamiya acrylics.

Ok so not sounding too thick if I clear coat over the German grey then spray the and colours on top light coats I can variate the shading so like seams etc I can be lighter showing the undercoat.

I intend to show burn marks around the tank as its destroyed so would this work?

I will go with your best advice

The type of paints I'm using are acrylic MIG ( correct German colours

Cheers

Robert

Robert1968 · Dec 10, 2015

Hi chaps

Need some advice

As you know I'm doing the Panzer IV in dessert camo ( destroyed tank ) now I have the rubber tracks kindly donated from my Jagdpanzer as I've got the link by link for that.

Anyway I'm looking for advice on blown tracks.

Question: as the tracks were made of metal etc what sort of damage would the tracks have?

Question: if the tank were still travelling at speed before being shot would the track rip the bottom rollers or just come off?

I have the damage to the tank done ( I.e the shot that killed the tank ) damaging the fender, I have bent some of the top runners to simulate the blast but I'm thinking would the front drive sprocket be damaged in any way from the track sheering off

I've given a pic of what I'm trying to portray. Any help on burst tracks would be helpful

Cheers

Robert

takeslousyphotos · Dec 10, 2015

I wouldn't bother with hairspray Robert you can get a very good chipping worn effect on panel edges hatches and stuff using a dark brown applied using a small piece of sponge torn off from a kitchen scourer. dip it in the paint and dab it onto some tissue to dry it off a bit (like you would when dry brushing....... Then dab that on the edges.

dubster72 · Dec 10, 2015

I don't think the drive sprocket would be damaged Robert, they're big hunks of steel!

As for the tracks, they're basically chains so only as strong as their weakest point where they join to the next link.

Most AT rounds of that era were HEAT rounds which essentially melt their way through armour plating. It's the tanks ammunition cooking off that causes major damage, rather than the actual hit.

I'd do the tracks much the same as the pic you've posted up. Here's another reference pic

One other thing I've noticed is that most abandoned tanks seem to have sunk a little into the ground. In the case of a P IV, often to the top of the bogies.

Robert1968 · Dec 10, 2015

That's so good an example Patrick as when I did the clay base for the dio I pushed the hull into the clay with the bogies on so I have the wheel set half down, sand is never hard really unless baked like in the Mohave dessert

I think the collection of tread at the front seems to be the way to go.

I'm also going to look st smoke damage and soot damage ( would that vent out of every orifice like the armoured eye slits ( periscope parts on the turret or would these be protected somewhat from the glass in the periscopes?

It's just I want to try emulate the best weathering as possible

Cheers

Robert

Robert1968 · Dec 10, 2015

\ said:
I wouldn't bother with hairspray Robert you can get a very good chipping worn effect on panel edges hatches and stuff using a dark brown applied using a small piece of sponge torn off from a kitchen scourer. dip it in the paint and dab it onto some tissue to dry it off a bit (like you would when dry brushing....... Then dab that on the edges.

Thanks Peter for the hairspray advice and not to go down that path, I have already decided to restrain with the desert sand Africa colours.

Patrick had advised me not to go down the hairspray tech due to the Vallejo paint I'm using and the plastic oat that's in the paint.

What I'll do is do the chipping tech with the original German grey paint and then with the burnt wreckage I'm going to try representing smoke and soot stains with pastels and oils

It's a shame really building a tank then destroying it but in a way it's more of a challenge in the weathering and staining/ burnt metal look

( takes a long time and light layers....... I'll get there........... Eventually

Cheers

Robert

takeslousyphotos · Dec 10, 2015

\ said:
Thanks Peter for the hairspray advice and not to go down that path, I have already decided to restrain with the desert sand Africa colours.
Patrick had advised me not to go down the hairspray tech due to the Vallejo paint I'm using and the plastic oat that's in the paint.

What I'll do is do the chipping tech with the original German grey paint and then with the burnt wreckage I'm going to try representing smoke and soot stains with pastels and oils

It's a shame really building a tank then destroying it but in a way it's more of a challenge in the weathering and staining/ burnt metal look

( takes a long time and light layers....... I'll get there........... Eventually

Cheers

Robert

I'm no expert Robert. But I would have thought that when the ammo cooked of in these things it would generate a massive amount of heat, and as I said in my earlier post the turrets were reported to glow red........ That being the case it would have burnt the paint off in places and I know from welding that when you burn metal it rusts like a bitch really quick...... So surface rust is worth considering I'd have thought, particulalry if the tank has had a while to sink in the mud.

dubster72 · Dec 10, 2015

The vision slits all had armoured glass, so I doubt any smoke would escape from them. You could do wisps of smoke from the hatches though,that would look good.

By the way, did you get that envelope I posted to you?

Robert1968 · Dec 10, 2015

\ said:
I'm no expert Robert. But I would have thought that when the ammo cooked of in these things it would generate a massive amount of heat, and as I said in my earlier post the turrets were reported to glow red........ That being the case it would have burnt the paint off in places and I know from welding that when you burn metal it rusts like a bitch really quick...... So surface rust is worth considering I'd have thought, particulalry if the tank has had a while to sink in the mud.

Now this is a subject I'm very interested in ( rusting effects due to heat etc ) would the rust be a very orange type of rust from the heat or a darker rust ( think that would be from soot debris etc

I do have a rust set of paints but I'm a little lost in the contact of rust ( bright orange to darker rust ) this is the help I could do with

Cheers

Robert

dubster72 · Dec 10, 2015

I would have thought the colour of the rust depends more on the length of time that something has been exposed to the elements.

So if the tank was knocked-out fairly recently, there would be more orangey rust than brownish rust.

On most of the photos I've seen, recent damage is more white & light grey where the heat has bleached the steel.

A Google search on burnt-out cars gives lots of examples of this effect.

noble · Dec 10, 2015

This is looking good mate if you are interested in rust effects then have a look at the humbrol you tube channel.

Scott

Robert1968 · Dec 10, 2015

\ said:
The vision slits all had armoured glass, so I doubt any smoke would escape from them. You could do wisps of smoke from the hatches though,that would look good.
By the way, did you get that envelope I posted to you?

I received a parcel/ envelope with jerry cans and a few figs in ( I think that was from Perer ) I have no as yet received yours but I'm sure posies will deliver soon

Cheers

Robert

takeslousyphotos · Dec 10, 2015

\ said:
I would have thought the colour of the rust depends more on the length of time that something has been exposed to the elements.
So if the tank was knocked-out fairly recently, there would be more orangey rust than brownish rust.

On most of the photos I've seen, recent damage is more white & light grey where the heat has bleached the steel.

A Google search on burnt-out cars gives lots of examples of this effect.

and very recent ...... The steel would blacken off some. much like a weld. Difficult to describe but visually a blue/black would be close. Very recent rust would start as very small areas ......... The best I can decribe it ........ If you took some 80 grit emery paper and fry brushed the very tops of the grit orange. That'd be how the rust looked when it started started. :confused:

takeslousyphotos · Dec 10, 2015

Go to Google and search "rust" ............ There are more photos than you can shake a stick at Robert.

Robert1968 · Dec 10, 2015

Ok here's a sneak preview inside my head ( don't laugh)

The vision I had for the Panzer IV was it was in the last line of a retreat when they were hit with a salvo from a British flanking position say a salvo of 25pndr or an anti tank gun and the British have sent out a recon to see what if anything was left to salvage or the wreckage/ ( possibly 2/3 hours after initial contact. The flames would have possibly gone out and the British on recon come across the wreckage and see a few dead Germans who had succumbed to their injuries and picked up any loose weaponry or supplies they could find.

I read that in the dessert campaign this was done ( scavenging ) on both sides the axis and the allies

Robert

takeslousyphotos · Dec 10, 2015

\ said:
Ok here's a sneak preview inside my head ( don't laugh)
The vision I had for the Panzer IV was it was in the last line of a retreat when they were hit with a salvo from a British flanking position say a salvo of 25pndr or an anti tank gun and the British have sent out a recon to see what if anything was left to salvage or the wreckage/ ( possibly 2/3 hours after initial contact. The flames would have possibly gone out and the British on recon come across the wreckage and see a few dead Germans who had succumbed to their injuries and picked up any loose weaponry or supplies they could find.

I read that in the dessert campaign this was done ( scavenging ) on both sides the axis and the allies

Robert

sounds like a great, realistic scenario Robert........... do it.

Panzer IV

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