“British Fighting Vehicles - Why You Should Avoid Them”
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Oh dear.... There she is with her irritating sarcastic Ozz squeeky voice castigating the British tank designers.Didn’t we have a couple of ex-fitters here?
Get your panties out of a twist little girl, it was in fact the British that invented the tank...
BUT, it was the Ozz that wanted the Centurion, the 432, but were only allowed the Centurion because the Ozz bosses said the 113 was cheaper - of course it was cheaper, the bullets just went strait through the aluminium sides, that is why they sat on top!!!! And as for the American cr4p you so admire I used to see more of their stuff parked up and smoking because they were far too complicated for the rednecks from Looooisiana to comprehend.
BUT more importantly - what tank or apc designes have Ozz given to the world, the BBQ, and even that was copied from an American design.
So in future before you start casting dispertions on everyone else - take a long hard look in the mirror and tell us exactly what you have, apart from a whiney voice...
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PM sent.
Bondi beach, Kylie, Neighbours, Home & Away, 7 foot rats that jump - now that lot would kill of anyone....
Gary MacKenzie
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I am more disappointed that people are angry at the messenger than the silly designs that are being pointed out.
Our present track record with the new APC's shows that the UK still hasn't learned from many of it's mistakes and now has to buy in German Boxers as a stop gap.
Our present track record with the new APC's shows that the UK still hasn't learned from many of it's mistakes and now has to buy in German Boxers as a stop gap.
Don’t forget bloody good troops that we completely threw away at Gallipoli…….
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Nothing wrong with the 432, it was designed as a battlefield taxi, it was never meant to go head to head with armour. It was a design based on the lessons learned in WW1 and 2 where troops were cut down by machine gun fire because they had to walk up to the enemy.
Having 'lived' in a 432 for a fair time I would much rather sit inside that than the Boxer who once you shot out the tyres was just a box stuck in a field. And as for 'shooting the messenger' perhaps the 'messenger' should really use the vehicle first in its environment and not just joy ride around a field. Yet again another 'Tubie' that knows everything about nothing.
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They were only examples off the top of my head.
You did forget ending every sentence as if it’s a question……
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Poor education and direct speaking, my downfall....
Waspie
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The UK, Army procurement had a thing about the modular approach to light armour.
The Landrover had done not just us but armies of the world a massive service over the years so what do we do. Have this awful replacement but it's ok because it can be converted into command, ambulance blah blah blah!!
I always remember Brig Rollo's passionate debate when they announced the death of the MBT. He was adamant that it was the worst decision ever.
When the Middle East kicked off we bought in Mastiffs and such then spent millions on each one converting them. I know of at least two UK companies and one French company that had tried and tested, (at ATDU Bovington), just waiting for the go ahead from HMG to start building. But no!!! We bought in then spent millions as I said converting them to what we needed!!!
Military procurement is a shambles.
Moan over!!!
The point that she fails to make is that she is talking about vehicles that have been sold off to private buyers after many years of service. There's no telling how long they were unmaintained. Yes there were some design flaws but all of these vehicles had extended service lives.
And didn't the Australians invent the Sentinel.... With the slightly droopy machine gun
And didn't the Australians invent the Sentinel.... With the slightly droopy machine gun
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Based on the American Sherman (Tommy Cooker) - and that machine gun says it all.
Largely due to their own officers' determination to prove the Anzacs were braver than the British. They had a far higher casualty rate than the British (who included my grandfather).
Pete
I doubt it was based on the M4 Sherman unless it was designed by someone who had heard of but never seen a Sherman - the hull is completely different design and the drive train is nothing like the Sherman's. The suspension was similar (but not identical) to the M3 (Lee/Grant)
But the complete absence of strategic intelligence and total lack of drive from higher command was all ours. The whole debacle was prosecuted so ineptly due to British arrogance and the inbuilt superiority complex of the higher command, especially Churchill, Haig, and the Lunatic Jackie Fisher. The prevailing attitude was that we simply had to turn up and Johnny Turk would run away. When they didn’t, the only plan we had was to throw more and more men at the problem because we couldn’t be seen to withdraw…..it might give other foreigners ideas above their station! Oh, and we attacked the Dardanelles with battle cruisers on Churchill’s orders before we actually declared war on the Ottoman Empire……
Airborne01
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I know from personal experience squaddies were involved in evaluating APCs, AFVs (and clothing, small arms) etc. We wrote lengthy reports that were promptly disregarded by the suits and (mainly) civilian manned committees! Never was there a better truism than 'A camel is a horse designed by a committee!'
Steve
Steve
Yes, there was a lot of incompetence on the British side, although the basic concept of forcing Germany to fight on a second front, without their supply channels via the Black Sea, was a great idea. I don't think that Churchill supposed that the Turks would run away, rather that they would join the British, or at least keep out of our way - I presume that was the intelligence failure. Some amazing mistakes include as you said the shelling by cruisers in spite of the unsuitable trajectory of their armament thus giving the Turks and Germans ample warning of the intended invasion, and the local commander on Lemnos whose name I can't recall who decided that to acclimatise the troop to the hot weather, they should unload the supply ships then reload them in a different order, so the items needed first, particularly water tanks, were at the bottom of the holds. Many of the first invading force were carrying 200 rounds of ammunition that didn't suit their weapons, and at least one was disciplined for throwing away what for him was a useless dead weight, especially when wading through chest-deep seawater under machine gun fire.
I have some personal connection to the debacle; my paternal grandfather had lied about his age to join up in December 1914, was sent to Gallipoli for the second invasion at Suvla Bay. Within 3 weeks he was in hospital for three bullet wounds in his shoulder and back. He lost the use of the upper muscles in his left arm, could use the wrist and hand but had to lift his left arm with the right. He was discharged from the army two weeks before his 18th birthday, but of course he'd signed up to serve His Majesty for the duration, so he was posted to an ammunition factory as a checker. It was there he met my grandma, so I suppose I wouldn't exist if it weren't for a few Turkish bullets.
Pete
I have some personal connection to the debacle; my paternal grandfather had lied about his age to join up in December 1914, was sent to Gallipoli for the second invasion at Suvla Bay. Within 3 weeks he was in hospital for three bullet wounds in his shoulder and back. He lost the use of the upper muscles in his left arm, could use the wrist and hand but had to lift his left arm with the right. He was discharged from the army two weeks before his 18th birthday, but of course he'd signed up to serve His Majesty for the duration, so he was posted to an ammunition factory as a checker. It was there he met my grandma, so I suppose I wouldn't exist if it weren't for a few Turkish bullets.
Pete
Good summary. At the start of hostilities we basically stole two battleships (that we didn’t need) off of the Turks that had been bought and paid for. We never gave back the money after keeping the ships either. That was an exceptional diplomatic error, and possibly the single biggest reason Turkey turned to the central powers. Only an egomaniac would think they’d join us after that? Germany of course compounded that error and cemented the alliance by giving them Goeben after it was chased into their territory.
The Dardanelles scheme was better than Fishers other plan to invade Germany via Denmark though. That one could’ve lost the war in a week.
The Dardanelles scheme was better than Fishers other plan to invade Germany via Denmark though. That one could’ve lost the war in a week.
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Very true. I actually fitted the SCAT mount for the battalions 432's so that the WOMBAT could be not only transported inside but could be hoisted up through the hatch and used in the open mounted version. And this was my workmate through the conversions...
... Great fun riding around in this, fitters wondered why it had no fuel when they came back and all their tea bags were missing - I soon confessed....