"Real" colours for Hurri Mk1 (BOB)?

[T. van Vuuren]

Hi all. I got the 1/72 Airfix Huricane Mk1 today as a fun quick build.

The decals I want to use is for # 87 Sqn RAF Aug 1940.

What are the correct humbrol green to use? # 30 seems to be to "green" but # 29 dark earth looks OKish.

Thanx

Theuns

 

[Ian M]

well a quick look in the paint box and by comparing the lid from Xtracrylix to the lids of Humbrol, the one that I think comes nearest is humbrol 116. Even if they call it US dark green!

I agree that the Humbrol green #30 is a bit green!

Ian M

 

[stona]

I don't use the Humbrol colours but most seem to find Humbrol 30 to be too green in the sense of blue/green. RAF Dark Green has a more Olive tinge to it.

It's very hard to describe these things in words

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Some googling led me to the IPMS Stockholm site and it seems HU 116 is a good match, thanx guys.

Now, the plans call for "Sky" underside, again no "out the tin" thing there. Some say HU #65 Aircraft blue , or maybe Duck egg blue. Close enough???

The box art however shows a Hurri with a white underside. Was this common during ops in France? White will be easier than the blue.

I opened the Hurrie's box expecting to be al surprized with the quality like with the Bf 110 new tool, but it turns out to be an old kit just re-boxed

Raised detail, poor fit and absolutely no cockpit or wheel well detail atall!

I sanded the detail of the left wing and re-scribed, looks a tad better I think. I might just slap in the pilot and put the wheels in to hide the wells.

Theuns

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[T. van Vuuren]

I see now HU 90 "beige green " is called for the underside. But I would still like to know if they were maybe also white on the underside in France 1940 ???

Interestilnly the decals for the side code shows the left side to read "LK-A" but the other side is "A-LK" This I find strange!

Theuns

 

[stona]

Hi Theuns,as far as the underside goes for the BoB period the best colour would be Sky,though there are certainly other possibilities. There was never a white underside. Whilst in France (this was the period known as the Battle of France and pre dates the Battle of Britain) Hurricanes would have had a black/white underside.

Humbrol 65 (aircraft blue) and Humbrol 23 (duck egg blue) are both blue colours and neither is much like Sky. Sky is something entirely different and has a distinctly green hue. There is much gnashing of teeth about a good Sky colour but,if you want a Humbrol colour straight out of the tin,go for 90 (beige green).

I'd lighten it up a little,but it's in the right ball park.

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Ok thanx Steve. I will do the # 90 thing, just a very strange colour to use on the underside.........unless you lads have a green sky up north LOL!

Theuns

 

[stona]

Hi Theuns, the colour Sky was the same as an earlier experimental colour called Camotint. This had been developed by a remarkable Australian, Sidney Cotton. He's well worth a google! It was found to give excellent camouflage when viewing an aircraft at medium altitudes from below. Pilots had complained that the earlier Black/White underside made them far easier to see than their Luftwaffe counterparts sporting blue RLM 65 undersides.

Sky was replaced later in the war with Medium Sea Grey on fighter undersides but reappeared post war. I have pictures of my father's 801 Sqn. Sea Furies with Sky undersides in the early 1950s and,later, colour pictures of Whirlwind helicopters with a lower surface colour very similar. I'm not sure whether it was still called Sky by then.

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Interesting info, thanx

I did get hold of some HU 90 Sky and Hu 116 green.

Theuns

 

[Ian M]

I have a suspicion that the 'sky' colour might of arisen from the fact that a good time for raids was early morning/early evening. Sun low in the sky and all that. ("We will raid them at dawn" seems to pop up a lot). The early morning sky can often be seen to have a green tint to it... I wonder if that could have had anything to do with the choice of colour?

I agree with Steve that Hu90 is in the right range but will look better with a couple of drops of white to lighten it.

Ian M

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Thanx

I have completed the basic construction and have shot on a coat of primer to check my re-scribing effort. Som fine touches to be done and then I will do the colours. I just hope that the decals conform well, the fin flash is the big one that covers the whole fin. Interestingly the side roundal has a small section of the outer yellow cut off to follow the line of the sky. Not sure why it was done like this.

Theuns

 

[stona]

I have a suspicion that the 'sky' colour might of arisen from the fact that a good time for raids was early morning/early evening. Sun low in the sky and all that. ("We will raid them at dawn" seems to pop up a lot). The early morning sky can often be seen to have a green tint to it... I wonder if that could have had anything to do with the choice of colour?Ian M

Hi Ian, the colour Sky was the same as Camotint and was initially developed for camouflage of photo reconnaissance aircraft as remembered by Sir Neil Wheeler.

Wheeler was neither the first,nor last,to describe Sky as "duck-egg blue". This caused confusion at the time and ever since. The colour is not really blue at all. There was a signal issued around the time of the adoption of the then new colour Sky allowing for it to be described as "duck egg blueish green" which is at least a bit closer.

To add further confusion the "sky-blue we know so well" does not refer to the already existing colour Sky Blue but to either Sky ( if Wheeler has remebered his dates correctly) or possibly PRU Blue! The quote is taken from an RAF Historical Society meeting about photo reconnaissance.

This document is courtesy of Edgar Brooks. I suspect it was to make the point that Sky was NOT the already existing colour Sky Blue but a new colour identical to Cotton's Camotint.

Another document (again courtesy of Edgar) makes it quite clear that Camotint and Sky are the same colour and also describes this colour more accurately as "pale blue-green"

I imagine it was called Sky because it gave camouflage against the sky! As simple as that. The same reason Dark Earth and Mid Stone were so named.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Thanx Interestingly the side roundal has a small section of the outer yellow cut off to follow the line of the sky. Not sure why it was done like this.

It was because the upper colours were not supposed to overlap the underside colour(s.) The yellow was to make recognition at the same level more positive. The Sky was to make the fighters invisible to bombers flying below, and a splash of yellow wouldn't have helped.

Edgar

 

[Edgar Brooks]

I see now HU 90 "beige green " is called for the underside. But I would still like to know if they were maybe also white on the underside in France 1940 ???Interestilnly the decals for the side code shows the left side to read "LK-A" but the other side is "A-LK" This I find strange!

The black/white undersides were (supposed to be) overpainted in Sky from June 6th., after Dunkirk; shortage of paint (at first Titanine were the sole suppliers) meant that some Squadrons kept the black/white, while other s tried to mix their own, and there's a possibility that some took Sky Blue (used on drones like the Queen Bee) and Sky to be the same colour.

The order, for the code letters, simply stated that the Squadron two-letter code had to be on one side of the roundel, with the aircraft's individual letter on the other. Early codes were supposed to be 3'(36") or 4'(48") in height, which meant that Squadrons struggled to fit them onto fighter fuselages, and some Spitfire (check "DW") codes went across the wingroot fairings. Eventually fighters were standardised at 2' (24") with Spitfires getting a special dispensation to go down to 20". This is why it pays to have a good look at any photos that you can get your hands on.

Edgar

 

[stona]

This is the sort of thing Edgar is alluding to.

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Yea, that is the one I am doing - LKA

I had some hassles with the Humbrol primer yesterday. It plainly didn't dry at all, so out came the Turps and 1000 sandpaper.

I shot on the Sky (#90) and it is truely an odd colour, but as you lads say - it worked.

This has dried and I will start on the earth(#29) and the green (#116) later.

I didn't do to much to the cockpit as the closed canopy will hide almost all detail ,or lack thereof.

The wheelwells were blocked off with card, but it is very un-neat. Still a tad better than the hole that Airfix left.

I am happy with the re-scribing effort. It is not by any means the best I have done, but again way better than the raird detail. I did however leave the raised detail on the fuselarge as re-doing that might be tricky.

Would the final level of shine be a satin or a fully matt???

Thanx

Theuns

PS. Mods if this thread is better suited in the "under construction" will you please move it?

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[Edgar Brooks]

Would the final level of shine be a satin or a fully matt?

Specification was always matt, even when, in 1942, they started to use "smooth" paints, it was always "Smooth, with a matt finish." If you think that it's a contradiction in terms, imagine the headaches for paint manufacturers.

The whole idea was to stop any reflections giving away the aircraft's position, when on the ground. This was the reason for prop blades being painted black, and canopies were supposed to be covered, as well.

Edgar

 

[blitzbob]

i have a number of hurricane parts in my museum still with some colour, the brown & green were never the same. most factory applyed but some squadron. underside 90% of the time, duckegg blue. i have a large part of wing underside showing light (sky) blue, Pre France, also black from France and duckegg blue from the battle where it was shot down.

There is no 100% right and wrong.

bob

 

[stona]

As Edgar says,matt on British aircraft. I have to say there are plenty of images in which the regulation "smooth,matt" finish has a slight sheen to it,maybe after a good wash and rub down.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

There is no 100% right and wrong.

bob

That's true but from 6/6/40 undersides of RAF aircraft were to be painted Sky. We know this didn't happen overnight and that there were issues with supply of the new colour and even confusion over what exactly it was supposed to be (evidenced in signals attempting to clarify the issue). Nonetheless at some time after the order to paint Sky undersides most fighters would have had exactly that. This was the Royal Air Force,orders are orders,not options. Sky,like the other camouflage colours was carefully defined and stipulated and too wide a variation from the norm would not have been acceptable.

These colours weathered in service. What they look like on seventy year old relics is dependent on far too many factors to list here but they may vary considerably from the original paint.

Duck egg blue was used to describe the colour Sky quite inaccurately. Duck egg blueish green was deemed more acceptable,pale blue-green (as in the letter above) is more accurate still. I wouldn't describe Sky as a light blue,like say the Luftwaffe's RLM 65,but everyone's eyes and perceptions are different.

I believe Edgar,who has contributed above,has a theory that the "duck egg" part of the description may refer to the smooth finish rather that any similarity to the various colours of duck eggs per se. We must remember that people seventy years ago may have used language differently to how we use it today.

It's also important to seperate an effort to discover what was on the original aircraft from what we put on our models. I certainly don't beat myself up making exact matches! If it looks okay to you on your model then that's as good as it gets.

Cheers

Steve