Vallejo Model Air and dry tip - this might help......

[adt70hk]

Hi all

So time time stick my head above the parapet again.......

I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to teach some very experienced modellers to suck the proverbial egg......but I've been in a PM conversation with Comrade Dzhon "4BO" Race about this recently and he thought it be might worth sharing with you.

I've noticed a number of you moving to AK 3rd Gen paints from Vallejo (and other water based acrylics). I'm not saying what I have to say will make that stop but at least it might help use up those old stocks of Vallejo with a little less frustration, for not much of an outlay. It may of course help those of you persisting with Vallejo, despite the dry tip issues we often encounter.

Anyway enough waffle........

When I first came back to the hobby I was lucky and had some very good advice from someone on another forum. He sent me an old airbrush and other supplies to get me started.

One thing he sent me was a bottle of DecoArt Americana Drying Time Extender Medium (see below). Although the bottle's always been there, I've kind of forgotten about it and the advice my friend gave me. I have recently 'rediscovered it', having just re-read the guidance he sent me during a clear out- he was an absolute genius with an AB BTW.

His advice to me was as follows:

• 2 drops of flow aid in the bottle upon arrival;
• in the AB cup,1 drop of the medium for every five of paint (not 1:1 as the bottle says);
• then, if necessary, additional thinner to get the paint to the right consistency;
• but no more flow aid if you use that as it is already in the paint mix.

It may be my eyes but this results in a mixture that seems noticeably more 'fluid' than if using one drop of Vallejo's own flow aid to the same ratio but not thin, if you get what I mean?

I used it when painting my Pz II and I have to say that experience was a vast improvement over previous sessions - and I had a lot of tank to cover. If not completely eliminating dry tip, it wasn't far off doing so.

Dzhon has also recently given it go and from what he said, his limited testing with some white Vallejo primer went well.

Price wise it was £2.60 for a 59ml bottle (4.4p per ml + p&p) from HERE. By comparison John is selling Model Air at £2.55 for 17ml (15p per ml + p&p). So, even if it doesn't work out for you it's not a big waste of money. I've not tried with any other paint but I'd like to think it will work with other water based acrylics.....

Anyway, as I said at the start I'm not trying to teach any of you to suck eggs but I thought I'd bring it to your attention in case it helps some of you, especially those members that are newer to the hobby and are just starting out on their airbrush journeys.

All the best.

Andrew

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Image courtesy of Comrade Race (all rights reserved).

 

[Steve Jones]

Once the paint has been applied how much does the drying time extender effect the drying out time of the paint on the model please??

 

[adt70hk]

Once the paint has been applied how much does the drying time extender effect the drying out time of the paint on the model please??

Hi Steve

I must admit I didn't time it but I don't remember it being tacky for much longer than is normal and certainly not to an extent that I noticed it.

Sorry I can't be of more help than that.

Andrew

 

[JR]

Once the paint has been applied how much does the drying time extender effect the drying out time of the paint on the model please??

Morning both ,I didn't really notice much different, I was spraying seagrass trees and left them for an HR before doing some black.
It certainly stopped that tip drying which has been a comom problem.

When I get round to applying the primer on the KV2 and top coat I'll let you know.

 

[adt70hk]

Morning both ,I didn't really notice much different, I was spraying seagrass trees and left them for an HR before doing some black.
It certainly stopped that tip drying which has been a comom problem.

When I get round to applying the primer on the KV2 and top coat I'll let you know.

Thanks John.

If you can that would be great, although my 1/35 Pz II is a bit bigger than I normally do, it's still not a big vehicle even at 1/35.

ATB.

Andrew

 

[BattleshipBob]

Interesting Andrew, was going to ask how much retarder for lacquer? Going to try mr color thinner as i read it ok as a retarder

 

[adt70hk]

Hi Bob

Thanks for stopping by. To be honest I don't know. I don't use lacquer paints. I don't what the ingredients are and so don't know how it will react. Might be worth buying one to see how it goes.

ATB.

Andrew

 

[Tim Marlow]

All good info Andrew. Glad it works for you! Out of interest, how fluid is this stuff? I have two, but neither really does what I want. Vallejo drying retarder is like treacle and turns VJ model colour into something more akin to heavy body acrylics. Windsor and Newton drying retarder is designed for heavy body acrylics and give the same issues. A retarder that is closer to water in consistency would be a nice addition to the armoury.

Not sure this is flow aid though, I think it slows down paint drying rather than increasing fluidity. That is how it reduces tip drying, the paint stays fluid longer so can more easily get blown off the tip by the airstream.
Flow aid is more like dish soap/washing up liquid and works by reducing surface tension in the water. it will stop paint beading up and will enable it to “wet” the surface more easily. Vallejo “Matt medium” is a flow aid and matting medium so may work well in conjunction with your drying extender......

 

[Tim Marlow]

Interesting Andrew, was going to ask how much retarder for lacquer? Going to try mr color thinner as i read it ok as a retarder

Hi Bob
Not sure what you mean here? Mr colour thinner is just that, a thinner.....I think the one to try is Mr Levelling Thinner. Tamiya and Mr colour spray superbly with it, but it smells quite obnoxious and really needs a mask. I just thin the paint with it and when the consistency is right, away you go. Never had tip drying issues with it ever.

 

[BattleshipBob]

Thats the one Tim, my misstake!

I think the grainy effect i am getting is due to distance and as mrp is so thin its starting to dry in the air

 

[BattleshipBob]

Sorry Andrew

Tim, how much would you add??

Use a pippette

 

[Tim Marlow]

For Tamiya I go to about fifty:fifty Bob. I don’t use Tamiya for brush painting so just dilute it in the pot.
Never used MRP so can’t say how much for that one.
Your grainy finish does sound like air drying though, so try less air or a closer spray.

 

[Deleted member 5496]

If you are having problems with Vallejo paint.

Problem solved use Vallejo Flow Improver. Absolutley works. I would not use a thinner for airbrush problems. The thinner will actually send off the paint quicker which is just what you do not want. The Flow Improver slows the paints drying through the airbrush but there is no significant difference in the curing of the paint once on the model.

I use Tamiya for general work. However for effects I use Vallejo as being easier than Tamiya for this work. Use the Flow Improver as a thinner & for effects airbrush at below 10PSI. Works perfectly & with a 0.2 needle/nozzle.

Laurie

 

[adt70hk]

If you are having problems with Vallejo paint.

Problem solved use Vallejo Flow Improver. Absolutley works. I would not use a thinner for airbrush problems. The thinner will actually send off the paint quicker which is just what you do not want. The Flow Improver slows the paints drying through the airbrush but there is no significant difference in the curing of the paint once on the model.

I use Tamiya for general work. However for effects I use Vallejo as being easier than Tamiya for this work. Use the Flow Improver as a thinner & for effects airbrush at below 10PSI. Works perfectly & with a 0.2 needle/nozzle.

Laurie

Actually Laurie you make an interesting point.

Now you mention it I do remember reading/watching somewhere about just thinning with flow improver not that I ever tried it. I'll give it a whirl next time I get it out.

In this case, as I said, I happened to re-discover my friends recommendation. Price wise this medium is about half that of Vallejo's flow improver.

ATB

Andrew

 

[BattleshipBob]

For Tamiya I go to about fifty:fifty Bob. I don’t use Tamiya for brush painting so just dilute it in the pot.
Never used MRP so can’t say how much for that one.
Your grainy finish does sound like air drying though, so try less air or a closer spray.

Thanks Tim, MRP is pre thinned so will have to experiment with adding self levelling to get to the right amount, i do tend to spray not to close, so i think thats a big part of my issues

 

[Tim Marlow]

The paint should look wet when it hits the surface Bob. If it doesn’t then you’ll risk a dusty or orange peeled finish.

 

[AlanG]

Might have to give that Vallejo Flow Improver a go Laurie. I have a couple of projects coming up that involve a lot of mottling.

 

[Deleted member 7181]

Thanks Tim, MRP is pre thinned so will have to experiment with adding self levelling to get to the right amount, i do tend to spray not to close, so i think thats a big part of my issues

Sorry to butt in Bob, but I'd agree. I find the solvents in MRP flash (evaporate) really quickly, so the paint could well be drying before it hits the surface. A little levelling thinner might help, but go steady as they are already very thin. Start with a drop or two in your cup.

Personally I go in pretty close instead (if the needle hits the model, back off a bit ) and use really low pressure (down to single figures if you believe the gauge), and remember it is an airBRUSH. For so long I treated mine like a mini spray gun, but once I got my head around using it like a brush a lot of things clicked into place and I'm now much happier with the results I get.

 

[BattleshipBob]

Sorry to butt in Bob, but I'd agree. I find the solvents in MRP flash (evaporate) really quickly, so the paint could well be drying before it hits the surface. A little levelling thinner might help, but go steady as they are already very thin. Start with a drop or two in your cup.

Personally I go in pretty close instead (if the needle hits the model, back off a bit ) and use really low pressure (down to single figures if you believe the gauge), and remember it is an airBRUSH. For so long I treated mine like a mini spray gun, but once I got my head around using it like a brush a lot of things clicked into place and I'm now much happier with the results I get.

Excellent, many thanks

When i first used MRP i thinned it my god it ran in and straight out of the brush no need to press the trigger lol

 

[adt70hk]

All good info Andrew. Glad it works for you! Out of interest, how fluid is this stuff? I have two, but neither really does what I want. Vallejo drying retarder is like treacle and turns VJ model colour into something more akin to heavy body acrylics. Windsor and Newton drying retarder is designed for heavy body acrylics and give the same issues. A retarder that is closer to water in consistency would be a nice addition to the armoury.

Not sure this is flow aid though, I think it slows down paint drying rather than increasing fluidity. That is how it reduces tip drying, the paint stays fluid longer so can more easily get blown off the tip by the airstream.
Flow aid is more like dish soap/washing up liquid and works by reducing surface tension in the water. it will stop paint beading up and will enable it to “wet” the surface more easily. Vallejo “Matt medium” is a flow aid and matting medium so may work well in conjunction with your drying extender......

Hi Tim

Sorry saw your response and forgot to reply.....

The retarder definitely leans a long way to the watery side - around the same as Vallejo's thinner or flow aid.

As I think explained it seems to leave the mixture more 'fluid' than the equivalent amount of thinner or flow aid but not appearing thin/transparent - but that may be my eyes deceiving me. Hope that makes sense.

As for not being flow aid - agree it's not. I'd been adding flow aid in a similar ratio but this seems to work better.

HTH

Andrew