Vallejo Primer From Hell !!!!

[rickoshea52]

If paint and primer shouldn't be shaken because of aeration then why do rattle cans have agitators and why do Mig, for example, sell steel bearings for this job? I agree that shaking introduces air to paint but air will want to escape from this suspension under ambient conditions, also if shaking introduces air to the paint what happens when that paint is blown through an airbrush?


This is just my point of view and alternatives are available.

 

[CharleyGnarlyP290]

I think the difference is that the air that is introduced by shaking stays in the paint longer. Air from the airbrush is almost immediately on the model and not sitting for long periods. I read about the shaken acrylics having this problem, or saw it on Youtube. Rattle cans are completely different. It is a factory sealed air-tight container, so nothing new is added when its shaken. And they are mostly solvent based so not as much of an issue anyway.


As for agitators in the paint, I think that it is not so much a problem with newer paint, i.e., fresher from the factory. Paint that has sat on a shelf somewhere (months, or even a year or more) would be more likely to get separated. Some of the bottles I have used of Vallejo paint have a skin formed on the sides and inside the neck of the bottle that regardless of shaking, mixing, chanting, thinning, etc., it is going to stay like that. Once an agitator is added it breaks that junk free where it can clog the airbrush. I thinks that is what causes problems with acrylic paints, especially Vallejo.


So, that said, the above post I made is my experience so far, and I may have different findings as I go along. Some people have absolutely no problem with Vallejo paints. I have. Sometimes it has worked without problems, other times it is a lost cause.

 

[Stevekir]

On my next airbrushing job, not having done any for many months, I will do what I did to help cure my horrendous blocking last year: pour the Vallejo Air into another more open-mouthed container, watching for lumps, clean the Vallejo dropper bottle and the spout very thoroughly with a small bottle brush, removing any skin which will often be there, (as Brett says), then replacing in the dropper bottle and using within a couple of months. We must accept that Vallejo acrylic Model Air paints do cause inexplicable problems for some people, and we must do our best to reduce these.


Advice on the Tamiya site advises not shaking their spray cans but holding the can upright and the top stationary and rotating the bottom round several times to get the rattle going but which stays at the bottom. They say this will minimise the introduction of air which you don't want much of and which vigorous shaking will produce.


As I have said elsewhere, I avoid airbrushing when using a conventional brush will do - for example when producing a rust or heavily weathered or otherwise battered effect. I even brush on the primer coat. For a high gloss finish I usually use Tamiya Synthetic lacquer in their spray cans. All this is so much quicker, partly because cleaning the AB is not involved.

 

[CharleyGnarlyP290]

Advice on the Tamiya site advises not shaking their spray cans but holding the can upright and the top stationary and rotating the bottom round several times to get the rattle going but which stays at the bottom. They say this will minimise the introduction of air which you don't want much of and which vigorous shaking will produce.

That is very interesting. I generally don't use rattle can paint on models, but will store this info away. And seems further proof of the air in the paint thing.

 

[BarryW]

I have used Vallejo Model Air for about 4 years or more and have always shaken the bottles and have placed agitators in the bottles.


Ultimately the results depend on a mix of factors including the airbrush set-up, temperature, humidity and so on. This is why we all don't get consistent results with one thing not working for one person working well for others and why it is necessary to have flow aids etc in our armoury. Some individual colours also behave differently to others and also you will get the odd bottle that is 'off' something true of all makes of paint.


I am moving across gradually to the AKI AIr Series of acrylics now (air referring to aircraft not airbrush). But this is nothing to do with any shortcomings with Vallejo but more because I find the AKI paints are particularly good and are in the same eye dropper bottles. I dont expect to ever stop using Vallejo all together though.


This thread started about the primers and then got sidetracked. I found the Vallejo primers OK treated right, but the new Stynilrex (however it is spelt) primer to be far better. I would recommend switching primers accordingly.

 

[CharleyGnarlyP290]

So right on the side tracking.


My original point in the paint comparison was related to the brand, and why I thought there might be trouble with the primer. i can't remember if I mentioned it, but the primer is the one thing I don't have problems with, agitator and all. Maybe it was a freshly manufactured bottle that hadn't had time to really separate and congeal on the sides and bottom.


Stynelrez looks like a great alternative for primer, for sure. I am also thinking of giving it a try.

 

[R_G]

I recently switched from Tamiya primer to Stynylrez. Nothing wrong with Tamiya primer, I just wanted to get away from the fumes. The Stynylrez seemed to work very well and dried quickly. The instructions say that it can be sprayed straight from the bottle without thinning, but I had some issues with it clogging up my airbrush a little(Badger Patriot 105). Once I added 25-30% Tamiya thinner it sprayed very well at 25 PSI.


Ralph

 

[meggsy]

I used the stynylrez? For the first time last week straight from the bottle and have to say it was a nightmare kept clogging my airbrush


What I did manage to spray I have to say I was impressed with ill give the tamiya thinners ago and keep my fingers crossed


Happy new year

 

[monica]

so sorry for the late reply all,


but had not been showing up with reply,


thank you all for the great help and info on this one,all very useful indeed,


some of the points made I do do,like using the vallejo thinners and so on,


will need to get some flow improver and give that a try,


I do have so gray and red/brown for well over 1 1/2 ,as I mostly use black,


give them a shake and add a few drops of thinner ,and away I go,


but this one real was a nightmare


will keep in mind for next time to drop them a email,about the problems,


so again great info and help from you all,


but in the end other than being a pain in the butts,its costing me a new AB,


as even if i get needles will cost me $15,and wait up to 4 wks so,just get a n


new brush,for $22,oh well,starting to get a few of these things I cannot even use,

 

[BarryW]

Regarding the Stynilrez primer i understand its optimised for a .35 needle so blockage could well be experienced with a smaller needle. In which case thinning (Vallejo airbrush thinner is comparable, not Tamiya though) is needed. Get the air pressure right too as you may find you need a slightly higher pressure as well.

 

[monica]

all very good point ,Barry,to take into account when spraying,


and always an off change of getting a bad lot as well,or even


it has thickened a little just with the air getting in it,

 

[John Rixon]

Call me Mr Picky, but all of these "you should roll it, not shake it", "you must have had a bad batch", filter it before use", "chant 1940s Surrey batting averages whilst shaking it" lead me to believe that maybe, just maybe, there are better primers out there?. Knowing what I know about acrylic paints, the concept of a hard drying, flat surfaced acrylic primer is a big ask, especially one that can pass through an airbrush with a nozzle smaller than a gnat's chuff. After spending £15 odd for Vallejo primer, and having had ONE spray job that went without a single hitch (and about 5 that needed mid-spray cleans, etc), I consider myself taught. Their paint is great, but I'll never be buying their primer again!

 

[monica]

well along theses lines John,I have been told that shaking it to much can make the paint split or separate,


wil over shaking and one thing also


with the shipment how do we know how,long it stat at the docks in a shipping container in 40c plus,so its been cooked,


before we even get it,


as out hear its always so late to get into the shops,because of holdup in shipping,


I did once use a bottle of AK,which worked fine with a few drops of thinners added,but was a strange color for a black,

 

[CharleyGnarlyP290]

Call me Mr Picky, but all of these "you should roll it, not shake it", "you must have had a bad batch", filter it before use", "chant 1940s Surrey batting averages whilst shaking it" lead me to believe that maybe, just maybe, there are better primers out there?. Knowing what I know about acrylic paints, the concept of a hard drying, flat surfaced acrylic primer is a big ask, especially one that can pass through an airbrush with a nozzle smaller than a gnat's chuff. After spending £15 odd for Vallejo primer, and having had ONE spray job that went without a single hitch (and about 5 that needed mid-spray cleans, etc), I consider myself taught. Their paint is great, but I'll never be buying their primer again!

And therein lies my complaint. The primer, straight out of the bottle is the only thing that hasn't given me grief. Their paints have been very hit and miss. More indication of their inconsistency.


I am going to be priming some stuff today with the Vallejo black, so we'll see how it goes.

 

[John Rixon]

Ha ha! But this is the problem, some folks are spare hassles with one and nor the other, and vice versa, seems obvious to me that summat is in need of consistency!

 

[Stevekir]

Ha ha! But this is the problem, some folks are spare hassles with one and nor the other, and vice versa, seems obvious to me that summat is in need of consistency!

I agree with your logic. With practice, if there was only one or perhaps two types of problem which occurred infrequently, most people would accept that.


But there is quite a wide range of types of problems that can occur in airbrushing, probably because there are many variables in airbrushing compared to, for example, the average carpentry or interior decoration job. This probably explains the fact that whenever a problem occurs, it is often a different type from yesterday and from the day before. This inconsistency is probably what frustrates people most.


For example, if you were decorating the walls of your lounge with one colour on one wall and another on the other walls, you would not expect one of the colours to misbehave, like peeling off the next day. And you would not expect a different type of problem to happen to the other colour, like failing to dry or being spotty, especially when your neighbour had no problems. And when you went to cut a piece of wood you would not expect you saw to suddenly become blunt overnight. Airbrushing behaves a bit like that to quite a few people.

 

[John Rixon]

I don't think that the airbrush is as much a variable as we might think, certainly compared with what we shove through them! For example, you could fire up your compressor and fill your airbrush with water, and spray day and night, hot and cold, it'll never clog. The same goes for Indian ink, waster colour, etc. The main problem, I suspect, is that the acrylic paint has started to cure, and that's when the lumps, or even an uneven thickening of the paint, appear. Primers need extra ingredients and properties that facilitate their effectiveness as a surface on which to paint, for a start, they need to grip to the surface of the model. Anyone who has painted an un-primed model with acrylics, will know how much harder it is to get a good finish. I primed my first model with a rattle can, and all went smoothly. When I graduated to A/B and Vallejo primer, I felt I took a step backwards, and as someone to whom paint (of all sorts) was my professional medium, I have to say that I was sceptical of the concept from the outset. My first use of it was the green primer on my Churchill, (my second completed model) which went fine. That was clearly a one-off, as, despite trying again, I never replicated the situation of filling my airbrush with primer and spraying the model until it had a beautiful, hard, slightly etched surface. Not one for banging my head against the wall, I decided that rattle cans were for me. I know they stink the house out, but I have an old house, with a basement, a perfect place to spray. In the spring and summer, I do it outside.


Sounds like that new Badger stuff is a move forward, but what a price!

 

[dubster72]

I agree with John - whenever we have problems with spraying, we always think it's the airbrush causing it. Usually the cry is "clean it again & again & again!"


I really don't see why this should be. All of us who use an airbrush will have a decent cleaning regime, so the main variable is the paint. Poorly mixed, incorrectly thinned paint will always lead to frustration.


I know that it's tough in today's world to use either rattle cans or cellulose based primers, but the fact remains that these will always provide a better surface for applying paint.


Acrylics simply "sit" on the surface, there's no chemical bonding taking place. At best you can hope for a degree of shrinkage or tightening as the acrylic paint dries.


But that causes its own problems. How many people complain about acrylic paints rubbing off during handling, especially on raised edges? That's because the paint has become thinner there due to the tightening.


It's just my view, but more time should be taken at this vitally important stage. Pretty much all the known issues with using acrylic paints come from a poorly primed surface - other than tip clogging, inconsistent spraying, pigment separation et al! But those can be solved by opening the wallet yet again

 

[John Rixon]

Acrylics simply "sit" on the surface, there's no chemical bonding taking place. At best you can hope for a degree of shrinkage or tightening as the acrylic paint dries.

Nail. Head!

 

[Stevekir]

I fully agree with John and Patrick. My post was referring to the "airbrush method of painting" as a system, compared to other systems. I agree that it is the paint component of that system that mainly causes the problems.


On my point earlier that airbrushing can be avoided in suitable situations by brushing with bristles, to this can be added the use of a spray can (as you both mentioned). I like to use Tamya's Synthetic Lacquer (the solvent is Cellulose Thinners) which is in a spray can and produces a very tough (and glossy) coat, reliably and quickly every time. I am going to use spray cans more often in future


>> Would both of you tell me what brand, and type (acrylic etc.), of spray can you use for priming.


>> Halford's primer is sometimes mentioned. Is that good?


I have been looking at other brands of spray paints:


Montana: 26 colours water based, 96 others (substance not listed).


Humbrol: About 10 (solvent based).


Kobra (acrylic) Well over 100.


Belton/Molotow 150


I have asked most of them for the solvent used and what gives the colour.