What shade of black for a Lancaster

[Stevekir]

I am about to paint (by airbrush using Vallejo acrylic) the black sides and underside of my 1/72 Lancaster IIIB ("Dambusters"). Revel recommends 95% black and 5% light grey. I have done tests but (under mat varnish which will be the finishing coat) it looks the same as full black. I think it should be a very dark grey, almost (but not entirely) full black, and distinguishable from full black.

Any ideas?

 

[eddiesolo]

Just try and change the ratio of black to grey, 85% black to 15% light grey or go with 80% black to 20% dark grey and see if they improve the overall look Steve.

Si

 

[flyjoe180]

Lots of discussions on black schemes throughout the forum on a search. This one may be of interest Steve http://www.scale-models.co.uk/threads/using-black-on-models.12895/

 

[eddiesolo]

I remember a bomber in black that was sprayed by mixing black and either dark or light blue, cannot remember exactly. Looked good though.

Si

 

[Bunkerbarge]

I think if you paint a sample piece with 100% black next to 95% black and 5% light grey you will see the difference. I would be very cautious about going too light so it looks distinguishable as when the model is finished I suspect you will start to see it as too light. I think the suggested ratio sounds about right but prove it to yourself and do a range of sample pieces with different ratios. When you have chosen one do a larger area then wait to see what you think of it in different lights. Again though older aircraft with slightly more sun bleached finishes may look lighter than freshly painted ones.

 

[Bunkerbarge]

If you look at the figure painting lads they mix blue with black for shading.

 

[Adrian "Marvel" Reynolds]

I mixed red with my black for my lanc, and then did some yellow with the black for other areas, I've seen one model that almost looks green faded to black.

Adrian

 

[Bunkerbarge]

Here are a couple of shots of 'Just Jane' doing her taxi rides this year at the East Kirkby air show. When you are close up to here there is no doubt that she is full on gloss black but it is only as you get away and the light changes that she looks different. If you were really brave enough I think the 95% would give you a good base colour, then perhaps an 85% and an 80% might be spot on for a couple of very light dustings of highlights and slight bleaching effects.

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[papa 695]

Vallejo Nato Black would be a good colour to use

 

[noble]

Try tamiya nato black or Revells Anthracite i think the colour no is 8.

scott

 

[colin m]

I second the hint of red trick - but it is just a hint. The first time I used this method, my first coat of black, came out purple !

 

[tecdes]

Finished my Lancaster in black does not look authentic at all.

Think after deciding that it is a matter for the individual to decide also affected by the scale. The Wellington Bomber I finished with Vallejo 71.056 black grey. Looks just right ----- for me. Then for some unknown reason I finished the props in black. Looks wrong but also confirmed that the black grey colour for me looked authentic

I have resorted to spraying an area the size that is going to be seen when finished on an empty plastic water bottle. Small test patches can be very misleading to the finished size. Also not to put one test colour next to another as this can be misleading.

Laurie

 

[CDW]

Before you go adding red or blue to black to tone down or tint, you need to check what colour your main black is orientated or what colin said above will happen.

Black is not a set colour, its comprised of the primary colours in different percentages.

Adding too higher percent of another colour will result in the following....

If your black is blue based then adding blue to it will deepen to a navy hue

If your black is blue based then adding red to it will result in a mucky purple hue

If you black is blue based then adding yellow to it will tinge it to a green hue

Red based blacks will end up with purple, brown and orange hues ( using the same addition colours as the list order above)

 

[Stevekir]

Here are a couple of shots of 'Just Jane' doing her taxi rides this year at the East Kirkby air show. When you are close up to here there is no doubt that she is full on gloss black but it is only as you get away and the light changes that she looks different. If you were really brave enough I think the 95% would give you a good base colour, then perhaps an 85% and an 80% might be spot on for a couple of very light dustings of highlights and slight bleaching effects.

Thanks for those photos. Of course, camera and monitor calibrations are never perfect, but the black looks to me as what I would call off-black (as in off-white), or very dark grey. Here is a clip of your 04.jpg changed to Greyscale in Photoshop. Interestingly, the black is only very slightly darker than the (presumably) RAF Dark Green of the upper side.

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After some tests I am going with 40%/60% Vallejo Black 71.057/Dark Sea Grey 71.048 which gives an "off black". If the first coat on the model is not right, the second can be altered (I always do two coats at least of colour). Thanks folks.

[Note: I made a mistake in typing the ratios of the paint. I have corrected it to the above 40%60%.]

However, mustn't be obsessive.

 

[tecdes]

There are no off or on blacks Steve. Black is black full stop it has no alternatives. It adsorbs no light what so ever. It is why black looks dead which in colour terms (being pedantic & also actually) it is not a colour as it has none.

Richards photos are fascinating & depicts the predicament. Some show black (loose terminology) as black some with the sun full on show the black as with a good shade of grey/green.

So take your pick ! What takes your fancy. Also interesting to look at photos in black & white. Those taken during WW11 were totally in the hands of the not so much the taker (although relevant) of the photo but the printer. How they developed the film & how they printed it. Was it contrast paper how long did they develop was it a warm or cold paper.

Laurie

 

[CDW]

I don't normally like to be pedantic Laurie and please excuse my correction, but in the case of black, it absorbs all light .. i.e. there is a complete absence of any transmitted or reflection of light in any wavelength.

As you say, true black is not actually a colour, but technically a shade, of which there are two... Black and white or ''half tone''.

To replicate black artistically we have to mix colours, so black is in effect a very dark red/green/blue .. whichever the most dominent colour, and as you say not a true black at all.

At the dyehouse we had swatches of fabric colours to match against for all the customer standards and there were several dozen different shades of black alone ... Trying times

 

[tecdes]

Emphatically you are right Colin. Got mixed between white & black & my apologies.

Laurie

 

[stona]

That applies to a theoretical black, the concept if you like. Unfortunately for we modellers, and the RAF's aircraft caught in search lights, the actual paint on these aircraft did reflect some light.

The modern air show queens are lovely to see but their finish is not representative of a war time bomber at all. I posted some pictures in that other thread of a Lancaster, fresh off the production line and test flying, awaiting delivery to a unit which gives a much better idea of the finish on these aircraft.

Night was black paint, like all black paints made up from a variety of pigments. The problem is not a technical one when it comes to painting your model. It is an artistic one. As Laurie discovered, if you paint a model black it will not look at all realistic no matter how accurate the colour. You will have to apply a grey of some description. I've seen this done in various ways by various people and I can't say that one looks better than another.

It also depends on the scale of the model, the smaller the model the more grey (or less black, depending how you see it) it will need to be.

How black is this 1/72 scale He 177's lower surfaces?



I can safely say not more than 80%

Cheers

Steve

 

[Bunkerbarge]

Interesting subject. It's funny how we quite often get into the subject of real colours for a great number of things such as U-Boats, AFVs, aircraft etc. I'm absolutely convinced that. at the end of the day they were all painted with whatever was left in the shed at the time! Add weathering, battle damage repairs and maintenance and any surface is pretty multicoloured. The good part is that no-one can say with any great authority that we have painted something wrong!

 

[AlanG]

Exactly Richard. Everyone's own perception is different. Just go with what you feel is right to your eyes