stona
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Thanks very much. I think I'm okay with this one but I appreciate the offer! If I'm not you'll be he first to know
Cheers
Steve
Another 1/32 Westland Whirlwind
- Thread starter stona
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Cheers
Steve
That’s fine Steve. Just don’t let a lack of correct decals stop you. I’m sure you’ll manage, I know you’re more than capable.Thanks very much. I think I'm okay with this one but I appreciate the offer! If I'm not you'll be he first to know
Cheers
Steve
Cheers
Paul
scottie3158
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Steve,
Looking good and coming together nicely.
Looking good and coming together nicely.
stona
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Just a quick update.
Flight Lieutenant Dave Ross, who flew this aircraft on the Operation Starkey missions is installed.
The undercarriage doors are clearly not designed to be shut on this model. A fair bit of huffing and puffing was involved to get them this far! The nacelle fit to the wing is excellent on the bottom (as can be seen) but a bit of work will be needed on the top. I've also completed the rudder and tail plane/elevators as well as prepping various other bits and pieces. Considering the type of kit this is, it's still been fairly pain free; after all, I'm forcing it to be something it was never intended to be
Next...some bombs!
Sadly, I don't think I will get this done before I start a fairly major job which will put me on a hiatus for a couple of weeks or so but we'll see how far I get.
Flight Lieutenant Dave Ross, who flew this aircraft on the Operation Starkey missions is installed.
The undercarriage doors are clearly not designed to be shut on this model. A fair bit of huffing and puffing was involved to get them this far! The nacelle fit to the wing is excellent on the bottom (as can be seen) but a bit of work will be needed on the top. I've also completed the rudder and tail plane/elevators as well as prepping various other bits and pieces. Considering the type of kit this is, it's still been fairly pain free; after all, I'm forcing it to be something it was never intended to be
Next...some bombs!
Sadly, I don't think I will get this done before I start a fairly major job which will put me on a hiatus for a couple of weeks or so but we'll see how far I get.
Sorry for a side track but that little group there would make a great little vignette.I was trying to work out why a random bomb was lying on the field and found this. It was obviously part of a wider photo shoot.
View attachment 477656
I guess they know what they are doing
Nice work on the Whirlwind (again). We will be here when you get back. Where you off to and who with...
stona
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I'm not doing the tour, I've bowed out as it's just too long (end of July in Europe) and I'm getting too old for this kind of thing. I am however going to be putting the lighting production together for a couple of weeks or so, which only involves a short daily commute. Weird though it may seem, I'm not actually allowed to say who it is, but it's "he who is in charge" (I hope I don't get done under the NDA!)
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stona
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I made the bombs and associated bits, which led me to the question of colours.
Sometimes you just get lucky!
After scrabbling at the back of the draws I found these, both unopened. It's just as well because the 'Buff' is an original White Ensign paint, and they sold out to Sovereign Hobbies years ago. The 'Bronze Green' is at least a slightly more recent vintage
But there you go, bomb body and tail colours...sorted.
Sometimes you just get lucky!
After scrabbling at the back of the draws I found these, both unopened. It's just as well because the 'Buff' is an original White Ensign paint, and they sold out to Sovereign Hobbies years ago. The 'Bronze Green' is at least a slightly more recent vintage
But there you go, bomb body and tail colours...sorted.
Ok no problems I won't tell the Boss.
stona
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I've had a bit of unexpected time to carry on with this, meaning it's more or less built and in a nice coat of grey primer.
I won't have much time over the weekend, but I'm still hoping to get this done in the next few days.
It was a beautiful looking aeroplane, the Whirlwind. I reckon it would give the Spitfire a run for its money in a beauty pageant! It's a crying shame that there is not one surviving example for us to look at today.
I won't have much time over the weekend, but I'm still hoping to get this done in the next few days.
It was a beautiful looking aeroplane, the Whirlwind. I reckon it would give the Spitfire a run for its money in a beauty pageant! It's a crying shame that there is not one surviving example for us to look at today.
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Agree with you Steve. It caught my eye the first time I ever saw it.
Me too…..just a great looking plane, and a very sad “what if”……should have had Merlin’s rather than wasting them in Fairy Battles……
stona
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That's a can 'o' worms!
It was designed around the Peregrine and when that was cancelled as Rolls-Royce streamlined for wartime production the Whirlwind was as good as dead. The decision to limit Peregrine production to just 290 units had already been taken in February 1940, when the first engines were delivered. It's remarkable that as many Whirlwinds were built as was the case (114). The manufacturer did nothing to help its own cause.
There is a what if, but it has nothing to do with the Merlin. Had the aircraft been ordered off the drawing board, delivered on time, and had the engine not been cancelled, the RAF would have had several squadrons of Whirlwinds during the Battle of Britain.
Conversion to a Merlin was no easy task. When Petter by-passed the procurement system and went directly to Fighter Command with his proposed Merlin powered version he was at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest. The Peregrine used a downdraught carburettor and the Merlin an updraught. Whilst squeezing a smaller four blade propeller between the fuselage and nacelles to absorb the extra power was doable, accommodating the Merlin and its ancillaries would have required a complete redesign of the engine nacelle and to some extent the main gear, certainly the attachment points would have to have been repositioned. Then there was the already marginal cooling issues with the Peregrines. The cooling system/radiators would also require a complete redesign. There were a lot of issues left unaddressed by Petter. Those saying that the Merlin was only x or y inches longer are missing the point. On top of this, the Air Ministry had already had enough of Petter and Westland, there was absolutely no chance of this happening.
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Yep, got that….I think we’ve had this discussion before
……..but as a what if……what if the original aircraft had been designed around the merlin right from the off……..As a design though it had so many things right. Bubble canopy, cannon armament, speed, manoeuvrability………several squadrons of them would have torn the German daylight bomber streams to shreds…..
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That’s one of the funs part about “what if” models, IMHO: if you do the research, you can pick your starting point for deviating from reality and justify it. Of course, the further you go with this, the more you stretch believability, but reading Steve’s explanation, I would say that “designed around the merlin right from the off” would not stretch it too far. Though it would mean you would have to come up with an believable engine nacelle design yourself if you want to build a model of it.
stona
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Okay, a brief as I can make it history of how and to some extent why the Whirlwind ever came into existence.
Specification F.37/35 was issued by the Air Ministry on 30 March 1936 and Armstrong-Whitworth, Fairey, Hawker, Vickers and Westland were invited to submit proposals by 1 May. Although the specification was originally for a single engine type there were serious doubts about mounting larger calibre weapons in the wings of unbraced monoplanes and the specification was modified to include twin-engine types.
Of those invited, only Hawker and Westland submitted proposals. In addition Bristol, Boulton Paul and Supermarine asked and were allowed to tender. These five companies proposed a total of eight designs.
Boulton Paul offered two single-engine monoplanes with wing mounted cannon. The P.88 'Scheme A' was powered by a Bristol Hercules, 'Scheme B' by a Rolls Royce Vulture.
Hawker submitted a version of the Hurricane with two Oerlikon cannon in each wing, even though the Air Ministry had expressed a preference for the Hispano. One wonders how serious they were.
Bristol submitted both a single-engine and twin proposal. The Type 153 was powered by a single Hercules, the Type 153 A by two Aquilas, the smallest of the companies sleeve valve engines.
Like Bristol, and in search of the most compact design for their twin-engine submissions, Westland and Supermarine both specified the smallest possible engines consistent with achieving the required performance. Supermarine's Type 313 used the 21 litre Goshawk B, and evaporatively cooled derivative of the Kestrel and Westland submitted their P.9 also powered by a pair of Kestrels.
Supermarine also submitted the Type 312, a single-engine proposal with wing mounted cannon which was clearly a derivative of their Spitfire.
At the tender design conference in May 1936 The Vulture powered Boulton Paul P.88 B was selected as the preferred single-engine design, followed by the Bristol and then Supermarine and Hawker designs.
The Supermarine Type 313 was the preferred twin, though Verney though the Westland P.9 was a more advanced design. Another issue was Supermarine's inability to deliver quickly. The company had estimated 27 months for the twin design, though Westland was not much better, estimating 18-24 months.
Wilfrid Freeman felt that some degree of competition was needed and on 24 August a single prototype was ordered from Westland. Without Freeman's desire to 'encourage' Supermarine the Whirlwind would never have made it from a paper project. Subsequently, Supermarine advised the Ministry that their experimental department was so busy that they would prefer to build just one prototype. This was agreed, one prototype was ordered from Supermarine and two from Westland.
The Whirlwind had had its first lucky escape!
Boulton Paul quoted £38,000 for its two prototypes, Westland £45,000 and Supermarine £23,361. This far exceeded the budget set aside for the programme (just £20,000) which sent the Air Ministry scuttling, cap in hand, to the Treasury. The funds were forthcoming and on 7 December the Ministry ordered the two Boulton Paul prototypes and the single Supermarine Type 313 but NOT the Westland prototypes.
The Whirlwind looked dead in the water.
Why was the order not made? It was due to financial/merger shenanigans at Westland which had caused several senior figures at the company to threaten resignation. These included technical director Teddy Petter, factory manager John Fearn and the entire board of directors, with the exception of Sir Ernest Petter himself. The Ministry estimated that without Fearn and Teddy Petter the delivery of Lysanders would 'probably be delayed by 6-9 months' and that there would be no point in ordering the F.37/35 prototype which design, according to Newall, existed only in Petter's head. Sir Ernest was summoned to the Air Ministry and told in no uncertain terms that unless Westland kept its existing design and production staff there would be no more Ministry orders. On this understanding the Westland prototypes were ordered on 19 January, though the contract had clauses allowing the Ministry to cancel, without penalties, if Fearn or Petter were to leave the company.
Lazarus had risen again.
Then, on 28 January the Supermarine prototypes were cancelled to allow the company to concentrate on its bomber to B.12/36. The Westland P.9 and single-engine Boulton Paul P.88 were now the only contenders in a two horse race.
Initially Westland made good progress with their prototypes, so much so that by October 1937 the Air Ministry was questioning the wisdom of continuing with the Boulton Paul P.88. In May the Ministry had issued F.11/37 for a two seat cannon turret fighter, for which Boulton Pauls P.92 seemed the most promising candidate. Their Defiant project was running behind schedule and progress on their F.37/35 prototype had been slow. Worried that ordering the two cannon fighter prototypes was over stressing the company's resources, on 19 October the Ministry cancelled the P.88 and ordered two P.92 turret fighter prototypes.
This left the Westland P.9 (Whirlwind) as the only remaining contender for the F.37/35 project. And that's how an aeroplane which was initially not a serious contender emerged from the back field to be the last man standing.
How the wheels subsequently fell off, and how an aeroplane ordered in 1936 did not have a production example flying until May 1940, delivered to the RAF in June, is another story.
Specification F.37/35 was issued by the Air Ministry on 30 March 1936 and Armstrong-Whitworth, Fairey, Hawker, Vickers and Westland were invited to submit proposals by 1 May. Although the specification was originally for a single engine type there were serious doubts about mounting larger calibre weapons in the wings of unbraced monoplanes and the specification was modified to include twin-engine types.
Of those invited, only Hawker and Westland submitted proposals. In addition Bristol, Boulton Paul and Supermarine asked and were allowed to tender. These five companies proposed a total of eight designs.
Boulton Paul offered two single-engine monoplanes with wing mounted cannon. The P.88 'Scheme A' was powered by a Bristol Hercules, 'Scheme B' by a Rolls Royce Vulture.
Hawker submitted a version of the Hurricane with two Oerlikon cannon in each wing, even though the Air Ministry had expressed a preference for the Hispano. One wonders how serious they were.
Bristol submitted both a single-engine and twin proposal. The Type 153 was powered by a single Hercules, the Type 153 A by two Aquilas, the smallest of the companies sleeve valve engines.
Like Bristol, and in search of the most compact design for their twin-engine submissions, Westland and Supermarine both specified the smallest possible engines consistent with achieving the required performance. Supermarine's Type 313 used the 21 litre Goshawk B, and evaporatively cooled derivative of the Kestrel and Westland submitted their P.9 also powered by a pair of Kestrels.
Supermarine also submitted the Type 312, a single-engine proposal with wing mounted cannon which was clearly a derivative of their Spitfire.
At the tender design conference in May 1936 The Vulture powered Boulton Paul P.88 B was selected as the preferred single-engine design, followed by the Bristol and then Supermarine and Hawker designs.
The Supermarine Type 313 was the preferred twin, though Verney though the Westland P.9 was a more advanced design. Another issue was Supermarine's inability to deliver quickly. The company had estimated 27 months for the twin design, though Westland was not much better, estimating 18-24 months.
Wilfrid Freeman felt that some degree of competition was needed and on 24 August a single prototype was ordered from Westland. Without Freeman's desire to 'encourage' Supermarine the Whirlwind would never have made it from a paper project. Subsequently, Supermarine advised the Ministry that their experimental department was so busy that they would prefer to build just one prototype. This was agreed, one prototype was ordered from Supermarine and two from Westland.
The Whirlwind had had its first lucky escape!
Boulton Paul quoted £38,000 for its two prototypes, Westland £45,000 and Supermarine £23,361. This far exceeded the budget set aside for the programme (just £20,000) which sent the Air Ministry scuttling, cap in hand, to the Treasury. The funds were forthcoming and on 7 December the Ministry ordered the two Boulton Paul prototypes and the single Supermarine Type 313 but NOT the Westland prototypes.
The Whirlwind looked dead in the water.
Why was the order not made? It was due to financial/merger shenanigans at Westland which had caused several senior figures at the company to threaten resignation. These included technical director Teddy Petter, factory manager John Fearn and the entire board of directors, with the exception of Sir Ernest Petter himself. The Ministry estimated that without Fearn and Teddy Petter the delivery of Lysanders would 'probably be delayed by 6-9 months' and that there would be no point in ordering the F.37/35 prototype which design, according to Newall, existed only in Petter's head. Sir Ernest was summoned to the Air Ministry and told in no uncertain terms that unless Westland kept its existing design and production staff there would be no more Ministry orders. On this understanding the Westland prototypes were ordered on 19 January, though the contract had clauses allowing the Ministry to cancel, without penalties, if Fearn or Petter were to leave the company.
Lazarus had risen again.
Then, on 28 January the Supermarine prototypes were cancelled to allow the company to concentrate on its bomber to B.12/36. The Westland P.9 and single-engine Boulton Paul P.88 were now the only contenders in a two horse race.
Initially Westland made good progress with their prototypes, so much so that by October 1937 the Air Ministry was questioning the wisdom of continuing with the Boulton Paul P.88. In May the Ministry had issued F.11/37 for a two seat cannon turret fighter, for which Boulton Pauls P.92 seemed the most promising candidate. Their Defiant project was running behind schedule and progress on their F.37/35 prototype had been slow. Worried that ordering the two cannon fighter prototypes was over stressing the company's resources, on 19 October the Ministry cancelled the P.88 and ordered two P.92 turret fighter prototypes.
This left the Westland P.9 (Whirlwind) as the only remaining contender for the F.37/35 project. And that's how an aeroplane which was initially not a serious contender emerged from the back field to be the last man standing.
How the wheels subsequently fell off, and how an aeroplane ordered in 1936 did not have a production example flying until May 1940, delivered to the RAF in June, is another story.
stona
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Daughter No.1's household is officially Covid positive, which is not good. On the other hand this means that I have not been run ragged all weekend by two small people a.k.a. the grandchildren, meaning that I've made unexpected progress on the Whirlwind.
This is straight after any masking came off, so no touch ups or adjustments yet. I did the old 'tear the masking tape' trick to get a less than perfect edge on the stripes, though you can't really see that here.
In all the excitement I completely forgot the Sky fuselage band, so that will be a late addition
This is straight after any masking came off, so no touch ups or adjustments yet. I did the old 'tear the masking tape' trick to get a less than perfect edge on the stripes, though you can't really see that here.
In all the excitement I completely forgot the Sky fuselage band, so that will be a late addition
stona
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Thanks, I'm sure they'll be fine.
They've all had it before and the grown ups are as vaccinated as that age group can be. This time the daughter is feeling a bit rough, the two little ones are positive but don't seem to have anything but the sort of sniffles that kids that age have half the time anyway and her fella is negative...for now. We did a video call with the kids because they were a bit upset that they couldn't come and there certainly didn't seem to be much up with them
stona
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Closing in on the finishing line now.
Trying to make the airframe look a bit tired (not filthy, a different thing) as evidenced in the pictures of 263 Squadron's Whirlwinds, taken at Manston at this time. They weren't big aircraft and I suspect that they were washed down before the black and white distemper was applied.
I'll end this thread here. Hopefully I'll be posting a 'completed' thread before this weekend. If not, it will be a while!
Trying to make the airframe look a bit tired (not filthy, a different thing) as evidenced in the pictures of 263 Squadron's Whirlwinds, taken at Manston at this time. They weren't big aircraft and I suspect that they were washed down before the black and white distemper was applied.
I'll end this thread here. Hopefully I'll be posting a 'completed' thread before this weekend. If not, it will be a while!